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Troutman or Watt?

Posted: 08/27/2014 10:45 AM

Troutman or Watt? 


During TC isn't wasn't even close, then Watt gets hurt, Pundits are giving week 1 RG to Troutman, unless he blows
Watt out of Murphy Canyon Tommorrow night, I'm calling BS! Watt is still the better choice right now IMO!




Play every down like the season's riding on it !
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Posted: 08/27/2014 12:03 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


Watt is good but lacks experience.  Troutman has steadily improved every year.  I don't know what the problem is.  I think it was obvious since Watt was drafted his position really will as Hardwicks replacement next year. Coach D personally picked Watt to develop for the position before the draft. Troutman was drafted specifically to replace Vasquez which now he is doing.  Clary was just a stop gap until Troutman was ready.

Next year will be Troutman starting at RG and Watt at C.  This gives Watt a year to focus on becoming that C of the future he was drafted to be.  And IMO he will be an upgrade to Hardwick once he learns how to make the proper calls.  Thats the part that takes time and experience to develop.
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  • fouts05
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Posted: 08/27/2014 12:20 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


The problem for many of us is Troutman was pretty inconsistent at LG last year and awful @ RG against Denver in the playoffs.  Watt looked pretty good @ RG during the preseason and I still have flashbacks of the Denver game with Troutman
beachbolt wrote: Watt is good but lacks experience.  Troutman has steadily improved every year.  I don't know what the problem is.  I think it was obvious since Watt was drafted his position really will as Hardwicks replacement next year. Coach D personally picked Watt to develop for the position before the draft. Troutman was drafted specifically to replace Vasquez which now he is doing.  Clary was just a stop gap until Troutman was ready.

Next year will be Troutman starting at RG and Watt at C.  This gives Watt a year to focus on becoming that C of the future he was drafted to be.  And IMO he will be an upgrade to Hardwick once he learns how to make the proper calls.  Thats the part that takes time and experience to develop.
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Posted: 08/27/2014 12:24 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


Tommorrow night, switch them back and forth I guess, but I'm leaning towards Watt. Orty is the B/U center right now




Play every down like the season's riding on it !
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Posted: 08/27/2014 12:26 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


Analyzing the First Round of Roster Cuts

The Chargers made a flurry of moves this week to get the roster down to 75 players. Some of the transactions were widely expected, while others were more surprising. Here is a detailed look at the more noteworthy moves that comprised the first round of cuts. Read More...



I really thought it was a mistake to play Troutman at RG in that Denver game. He should have been at left guard, where he had played all season, while the more experienced Chad Rinehard slid over to right guard. Not only would this have made Troutman more comfortable, but it would have avoided forcing two inexperienced players to play side-by-side (Troutman and D.J. Fluker).
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Posted: 08/27/2014 3:53 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 



fouts05 wrote: The problem for many of us is Troutman was pretty inconsistent at LG last year and awful @ RG against Denver in the playoffs.  Watt looked pretty good @ RG during the preseason and I still have flashbacks of the Denver game with Troutman
beachbolt wrote: Watt is good but lacks experience.  Troutman has steadily improved every year.  I don't know what the problem is.  I think it was obvious since Watt was drafted his position really will as Hardwicks replacement next year. Coach D personally picked Watt to develop for the position before the draft. Troutman was drafted specifically to replace Vasquez which now he is doing.  Clary was just a stop gap until Troutman was ready.

Next year will be Troutman starting at RG and Watt at C.  This gives Watt a year to focus on becoming that C of the future he was drafted to be.  And IMO he will be an upgrade to Hardwick once he learns how to make the proper calls.  Thats the part that takes time and experience to develop.

He was inconsistent at left guard last year, but come on, it was his first time playing in the NFL, and on top of that, he continually got better there.  You are correct about the playoff loss to Denver - for the first three quarters.  He and Fluker both were horrid those first three quarters (although Fluke was playing on a severely hampered ankle, and as a rookie himself).  It was the overwhelming reason why they couldn't do anything on offense until the 4th quarter - because their entire right side was a sieve.  They couldn't block anything over there.  That severely limits what anyone can do as an offense when that's the case, and it did the Bolts that day.  As I said going into the game, before it was even played, they should have left Troutman at left guard for that game, where he was comfortable and had become effective by that point, and shifted a more experienced Rinehart to the right side.  Oh well.

But as I've said before, I encourage everyone, if you have access to it, to go back and watch his play in the 4th quarter.  Yes, it took him most of the game, but by then he had figured out enough/been coached on the sideline enough that his play was pretty effective.  And the offense began moving up and down the field as a result.  Yes, the lengthy "learning curve" helped put them in too deep of a hole by then for it to matter, but they were rolling at that point, and Troutman's improvement was a big part of that.

It's why I'm excited to have him starting there this year - because I now know how good he can be there.  And that leads to the most important point in this discussion.

The team FINALLY has an improvement to Clary at the position he plays.  Y-E-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S!!!!!!!!!!

---
"I've never been around a 24-year-old 12-year vet."

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  • fouts05
  • Chargers starter
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Posted: 08/27/2014 8:27 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


You know 88 I gotta agree with everything you said.  And as a fan I really believe in Coach D - so if he's got Troutman playing the difficult RG position then he's our best guy.  I also am relieved we have Watt and Ohrnberger there for depth
88Unbeatable82 wrote:
fouts05 wrote: The problem for many of us is Troutman was pretty inconsistent at LG last year and awful @ RG against Denver in the playoffs.  Watt looked pretty good @ RG during the preseason and I still have flashbacks of the Denver game with Troutman
beachbolt wrote: Watt is good but lacks experience.  Troutman has steadily improved every year.  I don't know what the problem is.  I think it was obvious since Watt was drafted his position really will as Hardwicks replacement next year. Coach D personally picked Watt to develop for the position before the draft. Troutman was drafted specifically to replace Vasquez which now he is doing.  Clary was just a stop gap until Troutman was ready.

Next year will be Troutman starting at RG and Watt at C.  This gives Watt a year to focus on becoming that C of the future he was drafted to be.  And IMO he will be an upgrade to Hardwick once he learns how to make the proper calls.  Thats the part that takes time and experience to develop.

He was inconsistent at left guard last year, but come on, it was his first time playing in the NFL, and on top of that, he continually got better there.  You are correct about the playoff loss to Denver - for the first three quarters.  He and Fluker both were horrid those first three quarters (although Fluke was playing on a severely hampered ankle, and as a rookie himself).  It was the overwhelming reason why they couldn't do anything on offense until the 4th quarter - because their entire right side was a sieve.  They couldn't block anything over there.  That severely limits what anyone can do as an offense when that's the case, and it did the Bolts that day.  As I said going into the game, before it was even played, they should have left Troutman at left guard for that game, where he was comfortable and had become effective by that point, and shifted a more experienced Rinehart to the right side.  Oh well.

But as I've said before, I encourage everyone, if you have access to it, to go back and watch his play in the 4th quarter.  Yes, it took him most of the game, but by then he had figured out enough/been coached on the sideline enough that his play was pretty effective.  And the offense began moving up and down the field as a result.  Yes, the lengthy "learning curve" helped put them in too deep of a hole by then for it to matter, but they were rolling at that point, and Troutman's improvement was a big part of that.

It's why I'm excited to have him starting there this year - because I now know how good he can be there.  And that leads to the most important point in this discussion.

The team FINALLY has an improvement to Clary at the position he plays.  Y-E-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted: 08/27/2014 8:36 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


Fouts, wasn't Watt killing Troutman in TC? Or am I missing something?maybe still playing catch up from the (I), I think tommorrow night will tell a little More, and good, we're talking football again!




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Posted: 08/27/2014 10:31 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


According to PFF Watt has been the better player in the pre-season games.

But I don't know that you can take that to the bank given what time in the game they played.

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Posted: 08/27/2014 10:39 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


I really am impressed with the O line coach and how good a job he did last year making sure guys could fill in at multiple spots.   I will trust He and McCoys decision on who the start and think they both have potential.
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Posted: 08/28/2014 12:51 AM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


Last year Troutman had never played or even practiced at RG until he was thrown into the game.  The fact he began to play better as the game went on is testimony to how good he is.

Troutman's play last year was very good at LG and not the disaster some here like to spout.  That is the problem with PFF in that it's all taken out of context.

Troutman has played all over the place this offseason.  He's played C more than OG.  They are grooming him to be the backup C while also being the starting RG.  They wouldn't do that if he was the scrub some here contend.

They gave Watt a lot of snaps with the first team to get him ready in crash course, "welcome to the NFL rookie" style offseason.  But it's always been clear he's destine to be Hardwick's replacement.

Even PFF has to admit Troutman clearly outplayed Clary while playing both OG positions.  And like I said he only had problems when he started at RG for the first time ever with no reps during TC or even the season.  He came in off the bench as cold as you can be, but he played.

If you think Troutman sucks because of that game then Fluker sucks more because he was far more inconsistent through out the season than Troutman.  Go back and look at this year's Seattle game.  No different than last year at times.  He struggled against speed and strength then and he still does.

So if you denigrate Troutman you must do likewise to Fluker who was more inconsistent than Troutman during the entirety of the season.

I have no problem with the future oline of:

LT TBD
LG Rinehart
C Watt
RG Troutman
RT Fluker

They might not be the best but they are certainly good enough to win with and depending who is at LT, it looks like the best Oline that they have had in years.
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Posted: 08/28/2014 2:40 AM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


I'll leave the Fluker deal alone. You can only preach his inabilities so many times. He is who he is. If they want to keep him at RT, so be it. Again I, like Beach and few others, believe DJ's best suited for OG but I digress.


As for the Watt/ Troutman debate. I totally agree with Beach here. Myself personally see it this way. You likely already have your future starting inside three depending on what they want to do.


For me Orn and Hardwick are pretty expendable. Obviously Orn brings the ability to play all 3 interior positions and Hardy's knowledge amd vet leadership make him valuable in those aspects. But physically Nick's beyond passed his prime and more likely to lose one on one matchups. Orn is a solid stop gap but the reality is, that's all he is, is a stop gap.

Watt at this stage is and can replace Orn as the backup Center/interior swing. Troutman should start. I suspect Nick calls it a career in the next couple years. Not only that but Rinehart has only a 2 year deal? So with that I see him needing a successor also.


Follow me now. If they believe Watts can make it as a future starter. I would hold onto to Watts as a backup interior player. Let him and Watt learn and train for a year. In the next couple years your OL could be.....


L.T. = ?

L.G. = Troutman

C = Watt

R.G. = Watts

R.T. = Fluker


My early pick for next years draft is your future L.T. (I'm thinking) Andrus Peat. Fights the zoneish OL type player but has solid agility to be a blindsider at this level. Needs strength training and work on consistently playing with proper technique. Especially when tired.
It's not about how many times you get knocked down.  It's whether or not you are willing to get back up. 
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Posted: 08/28/2014 4:29 AM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


T, this where. I thought the rotation was going myself, an heir to the King( no pun) and Troutman at LG, this preseason all the hype led to Watt going RG until he got hurt, Troutman has a couple decent PS games and now we have A discussion, cool, I think after tonight Mac names a starting RG, and ever since I posted that picture of Coach D With X FILO, Ive been a HUGE fan, I don't think he can do wrong, and I trust whoever he puts out there, and later I
Won't spin it!
I'm also with you on Watts , let's see A lot of him tonight please!




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Posted: 08/28/2014 5:25 AM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


Does Watt have college experience at OC?  Can he snap a shotgun?  Rivers is in shotgun over 70% of the time.

I hope we found a gem in Watts!  Watt and Watts....  pretty awesome as "Chargers".

I do like Rinehart longer term though, and think he'll start for us for another 3 years or so.

Dunlap is the real question mark for me.  How long can he play healthy, and at a high level.
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Posted: 08/28/2014 4:45 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 




---------------------------------------------
--- yantha wrote:

Does Watt have college experience at OC?  Can he snap a shotgun?  Rivers is in shotgun over 70% of the time.

I hope we found a gem in Watts!  Watt and Watts....  pretty awesome as "Chargers".

I do like Rinehart longer term though, and think he'll start for us for another 3 years or so.

Dunlap is the real question mark for me.  How long can he play healthy, and at a high level.

---------------------------------------------

Yes Watt has experience at Center. He's actually been quoted as saying Coach D taught him a new way to shotgun snap so he's more consistent. Seems to me SD has already found their future starting center.


Watt is a quick study and prides himself on knowing the in's and out's of the OL so he's perfect candidate to be a center.


It would be tough but if I were Coach D, my interior would consist of
Hardwick, Rinehart, Troutman, with Watt and Watts as my backups.


Chris would be my primary while Craig would be my project and final option.

My main concern would be my swing bookend. Harris would likely be my default but I keep a close eye on the wire if a potential bookend becomes available.
It's not about how many times you get knocked down.  It's whether or not you are willing to get back up. 
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Posted: 08/28/2014 5:09 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


T, like Slam, you have valid points about Saturday cuts and Tackles both R & L really, we are a bit thin, even IF Clary was Healthy, we are stacked at OG, I'm sure if pushed the Guru could have one of these guys a doable Tackle
But we be a playoff team right?




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Posted: 08/28/2014 8:37 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


Troutman seems like a good back up player who can fill in on either OG spot.  Watt is a rookie with promise.  In watching the preseason Fluker really has struggled against a speed rusher.  I suspect when we find an alternative at the RT spot he will be moved to OG where he would likely be a pro bowl player.  I hope he can make progress but his footwork seems slow yet as a run blocker he is a road grader.  Harris sucks.   I would say OT and nose guard are my two biggest concerns for the season.
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Posted: 08/29/2014 9:32 AM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


I watched Craig Watts against AZ.  On 4 successive plays at around the 3:30 minute mark in the 3rd quarter here is what he did.  First and ten, on a running play to Oliver, Watts took out a LB, peeled off and followed Oliver in case there was another opportunity to block.  Second and short, Watts did not allow penetration, but actually drove his man back two yards to pick up the first down.  First and ten, Watts pancaked his man.  Next play. he pulled again and neutralized his man (a LB) again, pushed him out of the play and then followed the runner.  This guy understands his primary assignment and then with GREAT FBI's, looks for other players to block.  Here is PFF's OG guard ratings, not including the AZ game:

Rinehart***  +3.2
Watt*******  +2.1
Wiggins***  +2.0
Sirles******  +0.6
Watts******  -0.3
Johnson***  -2.8
Troutman**  -4.0

Watts shows good, actually great potential, but in order for the Bolts to gain that potential, Watts need to be on the final roster.  There are many bottom feeding teams that need olinemen, and would undoubtedly snatch Watts from the PS.  He might not even clear waivers, which mean a team could sign Watts and then put him on their PS.  LeCharles Bentley said Watts was among the top three OG's in the draft, yet went undrafted.  Good pick up for TT, now, he need to follow up and not lose this guy.

And in keeping with the thread, Troutman or Watt, I think the answer is clear!!!  Watt should be the starter and also backup center.
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Posted: 08/29/2014 9:58 AM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


We NEED to find a way to keep Watts then, sounds like a Future OG in our system with Coach D, but who goes?




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Posted: 08/29/2014 1:36 PM

Re: Troutman or Watt? 


Your assessment of Troutman and Fluker has some ring of truth, but only some.  It's like comparing apples and oranges.  SIXTY FIVE percent of the top pass rushing DE's play against the right side of the offense.  In my previous posts about the so called "franchise blind side LT", I mentioned the need for a pass blocking RT since defensive coordinators align their best DE's against the "weaker" RT.  Fluker, as you obviously state needs to improve his pass blocking, but Troutman was far and above the worst pass blocking OG last year, -13.2 compared to Fluker's -8.6.  And Fluker faced much tougher competition.  There is no so called "blind side" anymore and hasn't been any for about 12 years.  Analytics on right handed QB's provide the stats.  23% of passes are to the left side, 25% to the right, and 52% to the middle.  Simply put, the QB sees the entire field.  The blind side is a myth and assumes that because the QB is right handed that he only looks to the right side, hence the LT needs to protect the "blind side".  Pressure comes from all over the dline, and Troutman was horrible against the pass rush, ranking 71 out of 81 OG's.  Fluker wasn't much better, ranking 63 out of 76. Here are the stats for snaps and pressures:

Troutman     648 snaps   36 pressures   5.5%
Clary            787              26                    3.3%
Rinehart       684              17                    2.4%
Fluker          1075             47                    4.3%
Dunlap          687             19                    2.7%
 Si if you think that Troutman's play was very good at LG last year, then you must also think Fluker's play was very good also.  You say that Fluker was much more inconsistent than Troutman, yet that is not so.  Mathematically speaking, Fluker's standard deviation on a game to basis was .6, compared to Troutman's 1.5.  Standard deviations is based on the difference between each game's actual performance compared to the over rating.  And your statement about Troutman playing RG for the first time is, again semi-true.  For the game, here are the ratings from PFF:
Dunlap    -4.5
Rinehart  +1.7
Hardwick  -1.1
Troutman  -2.3
Fluker       -2.5

So it wasn't ONLY Troutman who sucked in that game--he was right in the middle, and yes, it was partly because he was playing a new position. 
Unless Dunlap has injuries concerns, the Chargers need to keep him.  With more pressing needs at DE (Reyes sucks), and NT (we need Jamal back), the future oline should be:

LT----Dunlap
LG---Rinehart
OC---Watt
RG---Watts
RT---Fluker

If we don't address the DE and NT, then a LT would be my choice, move Dunlap to RT, Fluker to RG and Watts to LG.  In any case, we need OT's who are good pass blockers.

beachbolt wrote: Last year Troutman had never played or even practiced at RG until he was thrown into the game.  The fact he began to play better as the game went on is testimony to how good he is.

Troutman's play last year was very good at LG and not the disaster some here like to spout.  That is the problem with PFF in that it's all taken out of context.

Troutman has played all over the place this offseason.  He's played C more than OG.  They are grooming him to be the backup C while also being the starting RG.  They wouldn't do that if he was the scrub some here contend.

They gave Watt a lot of snaps with the first team to get him ready in crash course, "welcome to the NFL rookie" style offseason.  But it's always been clear he's destine to be Hardwick's replacement.

Even PFF has to admit Troutman clearly outplayed Clary while playing both OG positions.  And like I said he only had problems when he started at RG for the first time ever with no reps during TC or even the season.  He came in off the bench as cold as you can be, but he played.

If you think Troutman sucks because of that game then Fluker sucks more because he was far more inconsistent through out the season than Troutman.  Go back and look at this year's Seattle game.  No different than last year at times.  He struggled against speed and strength then and he still does.

So if you denigrate Troutman you must do likewise to Fluker who was more inconsistent than Troutman during the entirety of the season.

I have no problem with the future oline of:

LT TBD
LG Rinehart
C Watt
RG Troutman
RT Fluker

They might not be the best but they are certainly good enough to win with and depending who is at LT, it looks like the best Oline that they have had in years.
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