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Smaller Secondary Can play big!

Posted: 07/16/2014 12:48 PM

Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


Good article on how players with intelligence and great work ethic can over come this height issue
They use the Dallas game as an example of how to cover Big men, there is a link and time line also.

espn.go.com/blog/san-diego-cha...ry-bolts-say-no




Play every down like the season's riding on it !

Last edited 07/16/2014 12:51 PM by viseman61

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Posted: 07/17/2014 3:54 AM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


What the article is saying is that in reality there is less margin for error in the CB's technique.  It needs to be spot on each play to get the consistency.  Which is why more teams are following the Sea Hawk lead.  Yes Sherman doesn't have elite speed, but his length clearly gives him a "larger playing radius", i.e. more room for error.

Conversely, Flowers doesn't have elite speed either, he's basically a 4.5 guy, which is good but closer to average than elite.  Accordingly being a mismatch with his speed and height his margin for error in his technique is pretty much non-existent.  Proof?  He was moved inside to slot CB, a new position for him.  He made the Pro Bowl not on last year's play but on 2012's play.  He clearly struggled inside and wasn't the playmaker.

A player like Steve Williams on the other hand is a different story.  He has elite speed, and an elite vertical ability so he showed in OTA's he can play outside as well as inside at slot CB.   Verrett like Williams has good speed and agility, with pretty good vertical ability as well. 

My point is that not every short CB can play outside.  In fact IMO the shorter CBs need superior speed, agility and vertical capability more so than the taller CBs to play outside.  Even then there will be mismatches and catches made over them.

You only have to go back and listen to River's talk about playing with VJ and Floyd.  How he never worried about how close the coverage was if the CB was a shorter than average height.  How many times did he say with a smile, that it didn't matter if they were double covered because in his opinion they were open due to their height advantage.  And he would simply "chuck it up there" where he knew his WRs could get it and the CBs could not.

Size can indeed matter with a CB and the article gives specific examples why it does.  I've watched enough film to know that it can and will be a factor in some games.  A decisive factor?  That remains to be seen, but to say it isn't an issue for concern belies reality.
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Posted: 07/17/2014 4:42 AM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


The "smarter" the CB is, regardless of measurements, the better the CB can play.

I'd say that ALL shorter corners need to be on the high end of smarts, while some of the taller ones, with long, lanky arms (Cromartie Sr. for example), can get away with being dumb as bricks.
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Posted: 07/17/2014 5:12 AM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


LMAO, Doc, I'll take the smart CB for $100 Alex! Ya, enough of dumbass PI penalties at the worst possible times like
The days of yor, Jammer, Florence!

Beach you know I had you mind when I found this LOL. I feel with a ramped up Pass rush, we should also be able
To over come this! Ie: QB is sitting on his ass, hard to throw the ball !
---------------------------------------------
--- yantha wrote:

The "smarter" the CB is, regardless of measurements, the better the CB can play.

I'd say that ALL shorter corners need to be on the high end of smarts, while some of the taller ones, with long, lanky arms (Cromartie Sr. for example), can get away with being dumb as bricks.

---------------------------------------------




Play every down like the season's riding on it !

Last edited 07/17/2014 5:18 AM by viseman61

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Posted: 07/17/2014 10:42 AM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


Beach, here is your assessment of Steve Williams after the draft:

"As far as Steve Williams is concerned, his talent is
moot this year.  There is no way to know how good or not he will be. 
But one thing is very clear.  His stature will limit him to a nickel or
dime DB and not a starter.  He doesn't have the length to play outside and
will be out matched when he has to cover a TE in the slot.  Bottomline is
that Pagano's ability to use him will be limited." 


So which is it?  Can he play outside or not?  Will he start or not?  I guess the point is that too many people make judgements on future value based on erroneous speculation and condemn an action without giving it a chance to succeed.
beachbolt wrote: What the article is saying is that in reality there is less margin for error in the CB's technique.  It needs to be spot on each play to get the consistency.  Which is why more teams are following the Sea Hawk lead.  Yes Sherman doesn't have elite speed, but his length clearly gives him a "larger playing radius", i.e. more room for error.

Conversely, Flowers doesn't have elite speed either, he's basically a 4.5 guy, which is good but closer to average than elite.  Accordingly being a mismatch with his speed and height his margin for error in his technique is pretty much non-existent.  Proof?  He was moved inside to slot CB, a new position for him.  He made the Pro Bowl not on last year's play but on 2012's play.  He clearly struggled inside and wasn't the playmaker.

A player like Steve Williams on the other hand is a different story.  He has elite speed, and an elite vertical ability so he showed in OTA's he can play outside as well as inside at slot CB.   Verrett like Williams has good speed and agility, with pretty good vertical ability as well. 

My point is that not every short CB can play outside.  In fact IMO the shorter CBs need superior speed, agility and vertical capability more so than the taller CBs to play outside.  Even then there will be mismatches and catches made over them.

You only have to go back and listen to River's talk about playing with VJ and Floyd.  How he never worried about how close the coverage was if the CB was a shorter than average height.  How many times did he say with a smile, that it didn't matter if they were double covered because in his opinion they were open due to their height advantage.  And he would simply "chuck it up there" where he knew his WRs could get it and the CBs could not.

Size can indeed matter with a CB and the article gives specific examples why it does.  I've watched enough film to know that it can and will be a factor in some games.  A decisive factor?  That remains to be seen, but to say it isn't an issue for concern belies reality.
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Posted: 07/17/2014 10:46 AM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


OH, and if I'm not mistaken, aren't Williams and Verrett about the same size as Earl Thomas.  I guess Thomas can't play either.
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Posted: 07/17/2014 7:26 PM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


It doesn't matter whether our CBs are quick and fast.  The key is pressure up the middle…  If we pressure the QB, our backs will be able to make plays.  I'm still concerned about the NT position.  That is the number one issue for the Chargers as we head into camp.

Last edited 07/17/2014 7:26 PM by Bolt4ever

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Posted: 07/18/2014 12:43 AM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


My post draft eval is just that an initial assessment of a player.  Since then, Williams has shown he can play outside.  His performance in the OTAs proved he has the athleticism to do it.  But he probably will start at slot CB as Flowers will be given every opportunity to prove last year was a fluke not a declining trend.

Ultimately, I can see Williams as an option to Wright at RCB next year as Wright is in his contract year.  IMO Wright will need a breakout year to stay in San Diego. I think he's capable of it and of being a very good starting CB be it here in SD or elsewhere.

All that said the OTAs also showed that the shorter CBs need to be on top of their game every snap when playing a good taller WR.  Remember this is Telesco's preference not necessarily Pagano's.   The article is correct, that Sherman doesn't make that play if he is 5'9".

Vise there is no question how good this defense ultimately will be, hinges on how good the pass rush will be.  IMO the real key in that regard isn't Freeney and Ingram.  The key will be Attaochu and Law.  If those two can become the outside pass rushers this defense needs then it can be very good indeed.  IMO Ingram is probably going to become to the Chargers what Johnson was in Baltimore.  A key every down OLB who can provide a supplementary pass rush, but who can be a force against both the pass and run.
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Posted: 07/18/2014 5:02 AM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


Here's an interesting analysis of Verrett.  His 2012 season was AWESOME, and his 2013 season was slightly less so even though he suffered a torn labrum and continued playing.  Imagine Philip Rivers playing an entire season with the knee injury he had when we played the Patriots.

http://sdg.scout.com/story/139...n-verrett?s=102
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Posted: 07/18/2014 9:03 AM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


Just a couple of thoughts - it seems to me that:
- generally, a tall receiver who is perfectly covered by a small(er) CB, needs the ball perfectly placed in a small window above the CB's vertical, but below the WR's vertical. I contend that the top 5-6 QBs can do that pretty consistently. For the majority of QBs, their more frequent small errors in placement will result in a higher % of incompletions/interceptions.
- even top 5-6 QBs will have a much harder time hitting that window when rushed, hit, or scrambling, resulting in much higher % of incompletions/interceptions.
- if your CB choice is between small, quick&fast. smart leapers vs. taller, tighter&slower, less intelligent jumpers, I would rather take my chances with the CB who is always in position to make a play, and write off those perfect throws. Of course, turbocharging the pass rush and having a solid base run defense to negate play action will, in my opinion, lower the number of perfect throws.
- If we can drag our defensive play up from the bottom of the league to at least the middle, especially turnovers and third down efficiency, we should have a pretty damn good team, which we will need to survive our schedule.
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Posted: 07/18/2014 9:12 AM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


WOW!!  Right on the mark.
OPBolt wrote: Just a couple of thoughts - it seems to me that:
- generally, a tall receiver who is perfectly covered by a small(er) CB, needs the ball perfectly placed in a small window above the CB's vertical, but below the WR's vertical. I contend that the top 5-6 QBs can do that pretty consistently. For the majority of QBs, their more frequent small errors in placement will result in a higher % of incompletions/interceptions.
- even top 5-6 QBs will have a much harder time hitting that window when rushed, hit, or scrambling, resulting in much higher % of incompletions/interceptions.
- if your CB choice is between small, quick&fast. smart leapers vs. taller, tighter&slower, less intelligent jumpers, I would rather take my chances with the CB who is always in position to make a play, and write off those perfect throws. Of course, turbocharging the pass rush and having a solid base run defense to negate play action will, in my opinion, lower the number of perfect throws.
- If we can drag our defensive play up from the bottom of the league to at least the middle, especially turnovers and third down efficiency, we should have a pretty damn good team, which we will need to survive our schedule.
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Posted: 07/18/2014 3:13 PM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


Yes but the operative part of that statement is that the CB is always in position.  This is what I'm saying the reality is that there is simply a much smaller margin for error in their technique.  Every player, be it rookie or vet will occasionally get fooled or make mistakes.  You hope they can recover to still make the play.  Lack of length at the CB position will make it more difficult to always recover.

As has been correctly pointed out by myself and others, speed isn't the only consideration.  VJ and Floyd have made careers of out jumping smaller CBs for River's jump balls.  The actual fact is that the vertical window is bigger for the QB when the size differential is say 6" or more, i.e. 5'9" vs 6'3".  As Rivers himself has said many times, tight coverage by a smaller CB means his tall WR is always open.  I would think Philip knows what he's talking about.

Telesco is obviously willing to concede that aspect of the game and hope it doesn't come back and haunt the team when it really matters.  All I'm saying is Telesco is rolling the dice and we just shouldn't be blind to the fact he is.

I will say it again.  IMO it's obvious that Telesco feels he could very well end up with starting outside CBs of Williams and Verrett next year.  They certainly would have speed and athleticism on the corners, but will be giving up a lot on the vertical matchups.  It's going to be an interesting year to see how it all plays out.
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Posted: 07/18/2014 8:07 PM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


Hey guys, you know what Williams and any other player on the Charger's defense(for that matter) showed during OTA's? Not a G'D' THING! Its OTA's. Dont waist my time acting like you are so knowledgeable and have such professional grade player personell skills and foresight to make educated evaluations on who's gonna do what and who should play what and where and when based on OTA's! Dudes running around in shorts doing drills. And then bring up combine stats! puhlease. Johnson has never been an every down linebacker. Odds are Law doesnt make the 53 and Attaochu aint gonna beat out Freeney. He's a rookie! HAHAHAHAHA Pure bufoonery

Cant stand the Donkeys

Last edited 07/18/2014 8:17 PM by Parkus

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Posted: 07/18/2014 10:14 PM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


So Watts is coach D's guy

Atta is Coach Pagano's guy 

And Verrett is the GM's guy? 


help.gif cause I'm huh.gif
It's not about how many times you get knocked down.  It's whether or not you are willing to get back up. 
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Posted: 07/23/2014 1:49 PM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


Parkus the reports from people that where there spoke of how well Williams played when matchued up against Floyd, Allen and the vet Charger WRs.  He won his share of those battles and did so impressively.  That said he also lost his share of those battles and IMO I would bet much of that was length related.  But overall Williams had an impressive OTA showing he can play both inside and outside.

IMO if the competition is truly open and not "fixed" there is no question Williams would push Flowers hard at LCB.    Flowers has always shown very good short area quickness and agility.  But his Achilles heel has always been his long speed and it's why he's always needed over the top help from the safety.  This allowed him to play the 1-6 routes aggressively and be "okay" with a trail technique if the route went deep.

The advantage of both Williams and Verrett is both of them are just as quick and agile in the short area and both have much better long speed to actually cover a WR all over the field.  Both Verrett and Williams CAN (that is the operative word, i.e. capable though not optimum) play all 3 CB positions.  Flowers is strictly a LCB.

The advantage Flowers has over the younger guys is far more polish in his technique.  I think there is no question Telesco understands the importance of technique to a smaller CB and it's why he opted to go after Flowers as both Williams and Verrett are lacking in experience.  It's why I have no doubt that Flowers will start at LCB but whether he finishes the season as the starter there remains to be seen.
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Posted: 07/31/2014 4:28 PM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


Weddle has said in a recent interview that in his opinion, Williams has the talent to be as good as any of the CBS on this team. That he has flashed enough talent in practices to show that.  Weddle went on  to say with Wiiliams its now a matter of consistency in his play.

Consistency in CB play comes with experience.

In practices, the smaller CBs have struggled at times.  I keep saying and I'm even more convinced we as fans need to temper our expectations somewhat.  I think by the end of the season this will be a good secondary, but I also think its going to take some time for the unit to play to it's real potential.
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Posted: 07/31/2014 4:49 PM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


The only reviews I've read is how well the secondary is gelling right now and that Verrett is everything advertised!
For me one of the best things of Thrills reports is that he is one of us and has no agendas or Bosses to worry about
So his reports are the real deal and that's what I'm going off of, ya I'll post some stuff that comes out earlier in the day, But when it comes down to it, I know what's real and what's fluff!




Play every down like the season's riding on it !
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Posted: 07/31/2014 7:26 PM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 




---------------------------------------------
--- beachbolt wrote:

Weddle has said in a recent interview that in his opinion, Williams has the talent to be as good as any of the CBS on this team. That he has flashed enough talent in practices to show that.  Weddle went on  to say with Wiiliams its now a matter of consistency in his play.

Consistency in CB play comes with experience.

In practices, the smaller CBs have struggled at times.  I keep saying and I'm even more convinced we as fans need to temper our expectations somewhat.  I think by the end of the season this will be a good secondary, but I also think its going to take some time for the unit to play to it's real potential.

---------------------------------------------


Definitely agree with you here brother. I mean like many here I love what I'm hearing out of camp but in the grand scheme of things we really won't know for sure what we have until they put the pads on and the scores count for something.
It's not about how many times you get knocked down.  It's whether or not you are willing to get back up. 
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Posted: 08/01/2014 9:34 AM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


Most people have made such a big deal out of the Bolts' schedule toughness this year (although I like that they are playing the quality of teams they are playing).  But they miss one thing that should help the Bolts (and the rest of us fans that follow them, as well).  The Bolts start off with some very difficult opponents, and then finish with some equally difficult ones.  What that will allow them (and us) to see, right off the bat, is where they stack up in terms of what they need to do to compete for a title.  Then at the end of the season, to see how far they've advanced in those areas that needed big improvement at the start of the year.

It will be very interesting to watch.

---
"I've never been around a 24-year-old 12-year vet."

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Posted: 08/01/2014 5:16 PM

Re: Smaller Secondary Can play big! 


This schedule will show how good this team really is.  If they can't make the playoffs with this schedule they aren't a legitimate contender anyway.  You have to be able to play with the best and beat them, to win it all and that is the ultimate goal.

This team tended to play to the level of competition.  They can't keep doing that.  They need to ramp it up and play at a high level consistently regardless of the competition.  They played tough teams well last year which bodes well for this year.  But consistency in their play will be key to their success.
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